Obviously, because certain Republicans even wanted to bring him to the Supreme Court. What I’m saying is that this is how we should proceed. Don’t say “big revolution.” You just select some specific point which in itself may appear a very modest one. It’s nothing special. You cannot accuse Obama of communism, my god. Canada has [universal healthcare], most of Western Europe has it. But in American conditions, this means, obviously, something quite strong. And I think this is what we should be doing today. Not dream about big revolution, or whatever, but pick out the dramatic points of each system.
It’s interesting that you present Obamacare as this revolutionary thing.
Not as a revolutionary thing. But as something which is insupportable, too strong for the predominant American form of ideology. That’s all I’m saying. I don’t like to use this big word “revolution.”
How do you distinguish between different approaches to social challenges? You see Obama’s healthcare plan as a challenge to a certain American ideology. But, in the book, you critique healthcare-oriented social organizations like the Gates Foundation.
I don’t believe in this model of society where the solution will be for the very rich people to spend half of their earnings. The problem is that first, they get all the money in the system, in the sense that they profit tremendously, and then they repay the debt. I simply don’t think charity and welfare is the solution.
The problem with charity is that it’s part of general ideology today. Instead of asking systematic questions like “What’s wrong with our system?” you go into personal responsibility. For me, the unsurpassable model of what is false in charity is still the first big one: Carnegie, of Carnegie Hall. On the one hand, yes, he did everything, building cultural home, concerts, etc., but on the other hand, he employed hundreds of Pinkerton detectives in Texas to beat workers to break trade unions. That’s the model for me, you know. First, you extremely brutally beat the workers, and then you offer them a concert.
Incidentally, you know who wrote — I forgot his name, the son of Warren Buffet…
Who wrote an op-ed in the New York Times a couple years ago, criticizing philanthropy.
I’m not saying these are bad people. Of course, it’s better that they do this than some nonsense or whatever with their money. I’m just saying that this is not the solution.
It’s the same, you know, with ecology. I hate this personal responsibility approach, where each of us is made to feel guilty personally. “Did you recycle all your bins, did you put all the paper aside, blah, blah?” As if, don’t ask big questions, but look at yourself — what did you do to save our earth?
The real problems are not here. And, on the other hand, you are also offering an easy way out. Like, “Okay, I’ll recycle all this stuff, I’ll buy organic food, and then I did whatever I can and I have the right to feel good.” No, the question is much more systemic.
I feel like you’re in the business of disenchantment. When I read your work, I wonder if this is what it felt like, a hundred years ago, to pick up a piece of strident atheist literature.
Yeah?
Is there that kinship? I mean, are you working toward a particular kind of disenchantment with these systems?
Sorry, I don’t get it. Are you asking me about this general idea that we are entering so-called post-secular era?
I’m just being incoherent. Let’s talk about the post-secular era.