Was it Epimenides, a Cretan, who said "All Cretans are liars"? What's the term for that? Because in actual real-definition terms of Utopia as "nowhere", the sentence is a conundrum - conundrum, that's the word, or close to it. Or is it a paradox? If Mumford is taken out of his context - the application of utopian theory to social/cultural planning/undettakings (rather ilke engineering using physics...) - and the sentence is taken literally, the world of hte map must contain "nowhere" - more than one in fact. Well, I guess I come from palces like that (backwoods Bc, where many places/creeks/mountains don't even have names, and likely never will....), but that's only utopia if humans don't move into it. To me, utopia leads to all kinds of mad stuff like messianism - Jonestown, Guyana, was a utopian community until....well, 'nuff said that it's not even alone in that sort of thing, just more recent and televised. See postscript below.Skookum1 (talk) 05:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)