P&G, however, claims that those notes were written before the company learned all it now knows about that derivative. And it says Bankers employees were clearly and almost continuously trying to deceive it from the day the derivative contract was initiated. P&G cites a taped conversation between Bankers employees about the Nov. 2 P&G contract where one asks: ``Do they [P&G] understand that? What they did?'' The other replies: ``No. They understand what they did but they don't understand the leverage, no.'' The first employee then responds: ``But I mean...how much do you tell them. What is your obligation to them?'' The second employee answers: ``To tell them if it goes wrong, what does it mean in a payout formula...''