CD: How do you deal with the frustration?
CG: We still do houses. The great reason to do houses is to work with people who are
initially uninformed, unaware of the idea of a process. We involve them in that discovery,
in the confrontation and provocation, questioning, and, in the most positive sense,
decision making. I have always believed that the house is an ideal project for an architect
because you confront yourself and you engage in a dialogue and in a collaboration in the
truest sense. Once I have that in a house, and I know this is my frustration, I have the
expectation that it happens with every project. When it doesn’t I become disillusioned.
I’m still naive enough to think that I can change this, that I can alter the structure of the
process.
Copyright Anyone Corporation 2009 5
CD: Are you answering these questions today in a way that is substantially different from
how you would have responded 25 years ago?
CG: I am answering them with the benefit of having had broader experiences. When Five
Architects was first published our buildings were primarily houses. We were all young
and idealistic and believed in the modernist ethic as though it were dogma. It was an
uncontaminated state of mind and a great moment that I would love to recapture. But how
do you edit yourself back? How do you take all the information that you accumulate over
25 years and filter it in such a way as to return to that state of dogmatism, that blind belief
in the ideal of something that allows you to be free and not pressured by the forces of
reality?
When my daughter Courtney was killed it took me a long time to admit that I was
depressed and that I wasn’t working in a creative mode but was in a holding pattern.
Based upon that experience, I could maintain a certain level, but I wasn’t pushing. I
couldn’t push. When I got past it, I could look back at the work that I was involved in at
that time and see a clear distinction between then and now. Today my frame of mind is
more like when Colin first asked these questions than it was 10 years ago. I feel freer
today, and in a way I feel more frustrated. Having gone through all this, why isn’t it just
as simple as it was when I built my parents’ house? The goal should always be to have a
clear process.
CD: Do you mean a clear idea?
CG: No, a clear process: a site, a program, and a supportive client, meaning an engaged
client who trusts you. The best work for me is work that comes from the pursuit of an
idea. I don’t have to agree with it but I can be so moved by the commitment to the idea
that I can learn from it.
CD: What investigations did you push aside that you are now returning to?
CG: When you find yourself having to add to a strategy to solve a problem instead of
subtracting from it, you are accommodating as opposed to editing. The collage and the
assemblage of the work are not about adding on but about reductive selectivity. It is not
an assemblage of addition; it is an assemblage of subtraction, a carving away.
CD: Do you mean to say that your work has gone through a period of addition and now
you’re back to subtraction?
CG: Yes. There were buildings that tried to expand the vocabulary in ways that were not
as clear, or not as formally resolved as in my parents’ house. But in the de Menil house in
East Hampton, built 20 years later, there is a whole different complexity that reinforces
the ideas in my parents’ house, like spatial layering. There is a different density, a more
complex hierarchy of primary and secondary readings. For me, that house became a sort
of second life after my parents’ house. It was very provocative because, though not
simply thematically reiterative, it made me realize that you could keep the same integrity
Copyright Anyone Corporation 2009 6
and the same formal morality and still do investigative work. The last group of houses is
representative of this as well. The Katzenberg house, the Becker house in Switzerland,
and the Dell house, or Villa Austin, are resummaries of formal strategies but also
reductive and extraordinarily articulate in their hierarchies and in their resolution.
CD: What do you think the zeitgeist was 25 years ago?
CG: There was a strong ethic in the roots of European modernism, an aesthetic that
helped define or interpret a period of time through architecture, painting, etc., and
allowed one to question the vernacular or the historicist base of our culture. We were
young 25 years ago, not only as individuals but as a country. The aesthetic of our culture
is rooted in classic European references. But 25 years ago we were the second wave of
modernists who wanted to understand what went before us and to use the information, to
elaborate on it, and not be afraid to reference Europe again in questioning the ethic of
American historicism. Even today, it is much harder to build a modern building. Think of
all the architects who design houses versus those who design modern houses. The
percentage narrows to an infinitesimal number. A lot of time is spent getting past
people’s preconceptions of comfort, visual and otherwise. What is the image of
traditional architecture in America that makes people comfortable or secure? How do you
disengage them from that? How do you get someone to
understand that by not knowing something, exploring it,
and discovering it you can find greater security than you
could ever get by constantly regurgitating and dealing
with your habit?
For example, there was a time when everybody talked
about ornamentation. That to me was a low point. In the
end ornament was really about dressing, and if you could
dress, you could also undress. I was interested in the
undressing, so to be accused of doing unadorned and
reductive building was very positive for me.
CD: What do you believe constitutes comfort?
CG: Comfort is a state of mind. It is also unfortunately ascribed to a state of body. You
don’t aspire to make comfort. It is not so interesting, actually.
Image (above) – Gwathmey Siegel & Associates Architects, Weitz Residence, axonometric.
Now if discomfort causes reevaluation, then you endeavor to make discomfort. Frank
Lloyd Wright’s work was about that. Any avant-garde work is about discomfort. It’s not
purposefully inconvenient; it’s about creating a new awareness or extending one’s
understanding of what art might provide or allow. Implication and speculation are much
more interesting than blanket statements. Likewise, being inconvenienced causes you
automatically to be more aware. You rethink your patterns; you rethink a lot.
Copyright Anyone Corporation 2009 7
I believe that a state of intolerance allows you to be more purely analytical, perceptive,
and inventive, uncontaminated by the “state of the art of comfort.” By intolerance I mean
an intolerance for the correct. I am more interested in going beyond the known or correct.
Beyond comfort. Comfort is the already known. If the known is known, why keep
repeating it?
CD: Rowe’s next question is a good segue from this point: “How permissible is it to
make use of precedent; and therefore, how legitimate is the argument that the repetition
of a form is a destruction of authenticity?”
CG: Repetition of form is a destruction of authenticity, therefore the notion of replication
diminishes the original. Right? That’s what we’ve been saying. But I don’t think it’s as
isolated as that. The idea of precedent and repetition changes when it is seen in a
reinterpreted set of circumstances. Context in the pure sense can change what is meant by
repetition or replication. I would ask, When does something become a precedent and
when does something become repetitive?
CD: You have talked about site and program as composites created in making a building
and designing circulation. What influences you in solving these problems?
CG: I’ll give you an example of what I feel is my ability to quickly analyze sudden
opportunities. We are doing a new house in Pacific Palisades, California, on a site that
overlooks the gorge, has long horizontal views to the ocean, and is 90 degrees to Santa
Monica and then downtown Los Angeles. This little piece of land tucked into the edge of
the gorge has two layers, thus two vertical platforms. I knew the program right away.
This was the perfect opportunity to make a building that comes from the land and a
building that comes from out of the land and to have the two combined in the exterior and
interior circulation systems. The one that comes from out of the land is a pure geometric
pavilion, and the one that comes from the land is a series of vertical and horizontal layers
that have been extruded. Together the two make a kind of collage and site-responsive
building that is totally unique. Strategically, the building has not changed much from the
first sketch I made on that land. I knew intuitively that the program would fit, that the
disposition of the program would be correct in terms of the adjacency, in terms of the
layering, and that all of this together was totally form-giving or form-provoking. I had no
preconception about it.
I am happy, finally, that I can go to an unexpected and unique site and not put my
parents’ house on it. Traditional architects have always taken a predetermined,
symmetrically cross-axial front/back strategy and applied it to a site and then adjusted the
site to make it fit. This strategy – that site dictates the organization – could never be
formally cross-axial or symmetrical, but is inherently asymmetrical both in section and in
plan, with specific orientation and different densities of pieces. One piece is on one part
of the site, the other is somewhere else, and this raises the problem of connecting the two
without having it look like a link, like a bipartite Bauhaus building.
Copyright Anyone Corporation 2009 8
CD: Has the site always been this important to you? Was the site such a factor when you
did your parents’ house?
CG: The site of my parents’ house was the top of the mountain,
ซีดี: วิธีทำคุณจัดการกับเสียงCG: เรายังคงทำบ้านกัน จะทำงานกับคนที่มีเหตุผลที่ดีจะทำบ้านตอนแรกไม่รู้ ไม่รู้ความคิดของกระบวนการ เราเกี่ยวข้องกับพวกเขาในการค้นพบที่ในการเผชิญหน้าและ provocation ข้อ สงสัย และ ใน แง่บวกมากที่สุดตัดสินใจ ฉันเชื่อเสมอว่าบ้านโครงการเหมาะสำหรับสถาปนิกเนื่องจากคุณเผชิญด้วยตัวคุณเอง และคุณมีส่วนร่วม ในการเจรจา และความร่วมมือในการรู้สึก truest เมื่อมีที่ในบ้าน และฉันรู้ว่า นี้เป็นเสียงของฉัน มีการความคาดหวังว่า จะเกิดขึ้นกับทุกโครงการ เมื่อมันไม่ฉันเป็น disillusionedผมยังขำน่าพอคิดว่า ฉันสามารถเปลี่ยนแปลง ที่ ฉันสามารถเปลี่ยนแปลงโครงสร้างของการกระบวนการลิขสิทธิ์ใครบริษัท 2009 5ซีดี: คุณตอบคำถามเหล่าในวิธีที่แตกต่างมากจากวันนี้อย่างไรคุณจะตอบรับเมื่อ 25 ปีที่ผ่านมาCG: ผมกำลังตอบรับพวกเขา ด้วยประโยชน์ของการไม่มีประสบการณ์ที่กว้างขึ้น เมื่อ 5สถาปนิกถูกเผยแพร่ครั้งแรกอาคารมีบ้านเป็นหลัก เราตอนเด็ก ๆ ทั้งหมดอุดมการณ์ และเชื่อในจริยธรรมบุกเบิกแต่ ก็มีหลักการ มันเป็นการดื่มรัฐใจและช่วงเวลาที่ดีที่ฉันชอบที่จะเรียกคืน แต่วิธีทำคุณแก้ไขตัวเองกลับมาหรือไม่ อย่างไรคุณจึงใช้ข้อมูลทั้งหมดที่คุณสะสมกว่า25 ปี และกรองข้อมูลในลักษณะเป็นกลับไปที่รัฐ dogmatism ที่ตาบอดความเชื่อin the ideal of something that allows you to be free and not pressured by the forces ofreality?When my daughter Courtney was killed it took me a long time to admit that I wasdepressed and that I wasn’t working in a creative mode but was in a holding pattern.Based upon that experience, I could maintain a certain level, but I wasn’t pushing. Icouldn’t push. When I got past it, I could look back at the work that I was involved in atthat time and see a clear distinction between then and now. Today my frame of mind ismore like when Colin first asked these questions than it was 10 years ago. I feel freertoday, and in a way I feel more frustrated. Having gone through all this, why isn’t it justas simple as it was when I built my parents’ house? The goal should always be to have aclear process.CD: Do you mean a clear idea?CG: No, a clear process: a site, a program, and a supportive client, meaning an engagedclient who trusts you. The best work for me is work that comes from the pursuit of anidea. I don’t have to agree with it but I can be so moved by the commitment to the ideathat I can learn from it.CD: What investigations did you push aside that you are now returning to?CG: When you find yourself having to add to a strategy to solve a problem instead ofsubtracting from it, you are accommodating as opposed to editing. The collage and theassemblage of the work are not about adding on but about reductive selectivity. It is notan assemblage of addition; it is an assemblage of subtraction, a carving away.
CD: Do you mean to say that your work has gone through a period of addition and now
you’re back to subtraction?
CG: Yes. There were buildings that tried to expand the vocabulary in ways that were not
as clear, or not as formally resolved as in my parents’ house. But in the de Menil house in
East Hampton, built 20 years later, there is a whole different complexity that reinforces
the ideas in my parents’ house, like spatial layering. There is a different density, a more
complex hierarchy of primary and secondary readings. For me, that house became a sort
of second life after my parents’ house. It was very provocative because, though not
simply thematically reiterative, it made me realize that you could keep the same integrity
Copyright Anyone Corporation 2009 6
and the same formal morality and still do investigative work. The last group of houses is
representative of this as well. The Katzenberg house, the Becker house in Switzerland,
and the Dell house, or Villa Austin, are resummaries of formal strategies but also
reductive and extraordinarily articulate in their hierarchies and in their resolution.
CD: What do you think the zeitgeist was 25 years ago?
CG: There was a strong ethic in the roots of European modernism, an aesthetic that
helped define or interpret a period of time through architecture, painting, etc., and
allowed one to question the vernacular or the historicist base of our culture. We were
young 25 years ago, not only as individuals but as a country. The aesthetic of our culture
is rooted in classic European references. But 25 years ago we were the second wave of
modernists who wanted to understand what went before us and to use the information, to
elaborate on it, and not be afraid to reference Europe again in questioning the ethic of
American historicism. Even today, it is much harder to build a modern building. Think of
all the architects who design houses versus those who design modern houses. The
percentage narrows to an infinitesimal number. A lot of time is spent getting past
people’s preconceptions of comfort, visual and otherwise. What is the image of
traditional architecture in America that makes people comfortable or secure? How do you
disengage them from that? How do you get someone to
understand that by not knowing something, exploring it,
and discovering it you can find greater security than you
could ever get by constantly regurgitating and dealing
with your habit?
For example, there was a time when everybody talked
about ornamentation. That to me was a low point. In the
end ornament was really about dressing, and if you could
dress, you could also undress. I was interested in the
undressing, so to be accused of doing unadorned and
reductive building was very positive for me.
CD: What do you believe constitutes comfort?
CG: Comfort is a state of mind. It is also unfortunately ascribed to a state of body. You
don’t aspire to make comfort. It is not so interesting, actually.
Image (above) – Gwathmey Siegel & Associates Architects, Weitz Residence, axonometric.
Now if discomfort causes reevaluation, then you endeavor to make discomfort. Frank
Lloyd Wright’s work was about that. Any avant-garde work is about discomfort. It’s not
purposefully inconvenient; it’s about creating a new awareness or extending one’s
understanding of what art might provide or allow. Implication and speculation are much
more interesting than blanket statements. Likewise, being inconvenienced causes you
automatically to be more aware. You rethink your patterns; you rethink a lot.
Copyright Anyone Corporation 2009 7
I believe that a state of intolerance allows you to be more purely analytical, perceptive,
and inventive, uncontaminated by the “state of the art of comfort.” By intolerance I mean
an intolerance for the correct. I am more interested in going beyond the known or correct.
Beyond comfort. Comfort is the already known. If the known is known, why keep
repeating it?
CD: Rowe’s next question is a good segue from this point: “How permissible is it to
make use of precedent; and therefore, how legitimate is the argument that the repetition
of a form is a destruction of authenticity?”
CG: Repetition of form is a destruction of authenticity, therefore the notion of replication
diminishes the original. Right? That’s what we’ve been saying. But I don’t think it’s as
isolated as that. The idea of precedent and repetition changes when it is seen in a
reinterpreted set of circumstances. Context in the pure sense can change what is meant by
repetition or replication. I would ask, When does something become a precedent and
when does something become repetitive?
CD: You have talked about site and program as composites created in making a building
and designing circulation. What influences you in solving these problems?
CG: I’ll give you an example of what I feel is my ability to quickly analyze sudden
opportunities. We are doing a new house in Pacific Palisades, California, on a site that
overlooks the gorge, has long horizontal views to the ocean, and is 90 degrees to Santa
Monica and then downtown Los Angeles. This little piece of land tucked into the edge of
the gorge has two layers, thus two vertical platforms. I knew the program right away.
This was the perfect opportunity to make a building that comes from the land and a
building that comes from out of the land and to have the two combined in the exterior and
interior circulation systems. The one that comes from out of the land is a pure geometric
pavilion, and the one that comes from the land is a series of vertical and horizontal layers
that have been extruded. Together the two make a kind of collage and site-responsive
building that is totally unique. Strategically, the building has not changed much from the
first sketch I made on that land. I knew intuitively that the program would fit, that the
disposition of the program would be correct in terms of the adjacency, in terms of the
layering, and that all of this together was totally form-giving or form-provoking. I had no
preconception about it.
I am happy, finally, that I can go to an unexpected and unique site and not put my
parents’ house on it. Traditional architects have always taken a predetermined,
symmetrically cross-axial front/back strategy and applied it to a site and then adjusted the
site to make it fit. This strategy – that site dictates the organization – could never be
formally cross-axial or symmetrical, but is inherently asymmetrical both in section and in
plan, with specific orientation and different densities of pieces. One piece is on one part
of the site, the other is somewhere else, and this raises the problem of connecting the two
without having it look like a link, like a bipartite Bauhaus building.
Copyright Anyone Corporation 2009 8
CD: Has the site always been this important to you? Was the site such a factor when you
did your parents’ house?
CG: The site of my parents’ house was the top of the mountain,
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